Date: 96-11-16 23:13:16 EST
From: Daniels CG@aol.com
DearMYRTLE,
I am confused about something. A few years ago I ran across a small shop in San Diego that different families either Family Crests or Coat-of-Arms (I don't remember which). At that time, I saw one for the Daniels Family.
I am interested in downloading a copy of the Crest or CoA from the Internet if possible; is there a library that you can download Family Crests or Coat-of-Arms from? Thanks for the help. -- Daniels CG
DearDANIELS,
Indeed we have all run across little shop like this, who offer such wares to unsuspecting individuals. Yes, these glasses, framed parchment reprints and such provide interesting decoration, and perhaps serve as conversation pieces, however, dear Daniels, may I quote a well respected genealogist and author, James C. Neagles:
"...there is no such thing as a "family coat-of-arms" or a "family crest"; even in the event that one can trace his or her lineage to a family that was granted such an honor. To use arms one must officially apply for its use only after the correct "differencing" has taken place. There may be an exception when it can be proved that the applicant is a direct male descendant of the original armiger. The mere coincidence of one's surname being the same as a person who was granted arms is no indication of family relationship, nor does it indicate any right to arms. In the United States it is no crime to display arms and related insignia if one wishes. However, it should be understood that such a display is purely decorative." From the book The Library of Congress: A Guide to Historical & Genealogical Resources, Chapter 8.
>From the internet, I routinely read two newsgroups, rec.heraldry and soc.genealogy.medieval . This is the beginning of a thread which should interest you!
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"Subject: Re: Findind Coats of Arms
From: mfm@sns.com (Michael F. McCartney)
Date: Sat, 04 Jan 97 09:48:28 GMT
In article ,
mjegan@cyberlink.bc.ca (Michael Egan) wrote:
>How would one check to see if there is a Coat of Arms for my ancestors?
First, you would need to know (or find out) who your ancestors are. This may sound silly, but it emphasizes that you are looking for your actual blood ancestors, not just some dead stranger who happens to have the same name.
Assuming you're looking for your Egan ancestors & that they were Irish, your best source of info would be the Chief Herald of Ireland, Dublin Castle, Dublin Ireland. He'd ned to know as much as possible about as many generations back as possible. There is NO guarantee that he will be able to make a connection -- i.e. odds are (without knowing anything specific) that your ancestors didn't have arms, since the armigerous proportion of the population has always been a minority. If that turns out to be the case, the Chief Herald will be willing to assist you in registering a new coat of arms for you & yours, probably based to some degree on whatever "historical" arms other Egans have borne but not an exact copy; but there is a substantial fee.
Or as a Canadian (if I decipher your e-mail address properly) the Chief Herald of Canada, Rideau Hall, Ottawa can assist you in designing and recording a new coat of arms; again, there is a substantial fee. Or if you are so inclined you can just design new arms and assume them unofficially -- opinions here will vary as to whether that's "cricket" in a country with an official office of heraldry, but as I'm not Canadian I'll just watch. In any case, there are undoubtedly rec.heraldry readers who would enjoy suggesting possible designs, which you are of course free to accept or reject or modify etc.
The only option we would all condemn is to trot down to your favorite mall and purchase "the arms of your family name" [ain't no such animal] from some guy in a storefront with a computer...anyway, welcome to rec.heraldry!"
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READERS, I also found references to the web site:
http://www.kwtelecom.com/heraldry/collarms/
however, due to to heavy network traffic today, I was unable to confirm the accuracy of this URL. Additionally, here is an interesting post concerning the offices of Herald:
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Subject: Re: New at Heraldry
From: jpjnsn@aol.com
Date: 3 Jan 1997 09:04:23 GMT
>>1. In countries where heraldry is regulated does the office of Herald still exist? If it does, is still passed down generation to generation or is it now filed by a governmental employee or appointee?>>
Most heraldic offices have never been hereditary, and have always been appointed by the Crown, government or whoever the herald serves.
In England, there are a number of heralds in the College of Arms:-
Garter King of Arms
Clarenceux King of Arms
Norroy & Ulster King of Arms
Windsor Herald
Somerset Herald
Richmond Herald
York Herald
Chester Herald
Lancaster Herald
Bluemantle Pursuivant
Portcullis Pursuivant
Rouge Croix Pursuivant
Rouge Dragon Pursuivant
The heralds are responsible to the Hereditary Earl Marshal of England (The Duke of Norfolk)
There are also some "Heralds Extraordinary" who don't belong to the College.
In Scotland, the Court of the Lord Lyon consists of:
Lord Lyon King of Arms
Albany Herald
Rothesay Herald
Ross Herald
Kintyre Pursuivant
Unicorn Pursuivant
Carrick Pursuivant
In the Republic of Ireland, there is a Chief Herald of Ireland. I'm not sure if she has any other heralds beneath her.
In Canada, the Canadian Heraldic Authority includes:
The Chief Herald of Canada
Saint-Laurent Herald
Athabaska Herald
Fraser Herald
The Canadian Heralds are responsible to the Herald Chancellor and Deputy Herald Chancellor.
There are also two Chronistas Rey de Armas in Spain, and some sort of herald in South Africa.
South Africa has a heraldic authority as well, but I don't know what its officers are called.
>> If the office of Herald is still in existence is a Herald well compensated for his work?>>
In England, heralds are paid a nominal sum by the Crown, but charge fees for their work.
>> When a person is granted a coat of arms who determines what the design will be and must it be approved by the sovereign before being presented?>>
The arms are designed by the appropriate heralds (kings of arms in England and Scotland) in consultation with the grantee. The Sovereign does not personally get involved, although she may grant arms by Royal Warrant (this is the normal method for the arms of members of the Royal Family). Paul Johnson, Bristol, UK
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READERS,
In any event, I think you will enjoy browsing the thread of messages on both the rec.heraldry and soc.genealogy.medieval newsgroups/ To get there, go to
www.dejanews.com and click on "Search Discussions" and then specify heraldry.
Take care not to fall off thy horse, brave knight!
Happy Family Tree Climbing.
Myrt :)
DearMYRTLE,
Your friend in genealogy.
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